tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8943606491780538470.post8598912453752100789..comments2024-01-20T04:48:07.301+01:00Comments on The Bitten Bullet: Happy German Beer Day!Barry Mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07367655129107699025noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8943606491780538470.post-33843378696615047682009-04-24T22:42:00.000+02:002009-04-24T22:42:00.000+02:00Hmm, easily done. It was a badly constructed sente...Hmm, easily done. It was a badly constructed sentence and not very precise :) THing is, yeast has always been there, and it didn't need some bloke with a microscope to discover it. Bit like gravity :D<br /><br />Speaking of using yeast in ancient times, you might be interested in some of the theories about Fulachta Fiadh, what I knew as ancient cooking sites in Ireland (I surveyed a good few n a previous life, when I was a surveyor that is!), and the experiments this group did in brewing using them. These date from c. 1500- c. 500 BC. Crazy sods :D<br /><br />http://mooregroup.wordpress.com/2007/10/08/the-archaeology-ireland-article/<br /><br />http://mooregroup.wordpress.com/2008/02/13/early-irish-ale/Barry Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07367655129107699025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8943606491780538470.post-47740266780730737792009-04-24T16:33:00.000+02:002009-04-24T16:33:00.000+02:00I guess I misunderstood you thinking you were mean...I guess I misunderstood you thinking you were meaning what I've seen countless times "yeasts were not included because they weren't discovered yet". I've always wondered if those who write that piece of sillyness ever took a moment to think how people baked bread before 1857 or whenever it was that Pasteur said "eureka".<br /><br />Ron's post on the extinct or endangered German styles is an eye opener and a fantastic read that should be mandatory to all those that still believe that the 'bot was the best thing that has ever happened to beer.Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8943606491780538470.post-35714554231944023182009-04-23T14:57:00.000+02:002009-04-23T14:57:00.000+02:00What I actually said above was they may not have k...What I actually said above was they may not have known "<I>what it was</I>" . I would have thought they knew what it did in some way, as it was necessary. I always reckoned the auld magic stirring stick or keeping sediment for it to kick off again was certainly well know for thousands of years. Although Martyn Cornell (Zythophile) says "<I>Although brewers knew that yeast was essential for fermentation, they had no idea what it did, and no clue as to the actual nature of yeast</I>". See link below. Anyway, my point in my post of "fair enough" was more who cares if it wasn't listed in the gebot back then. Do we really care now? And it's been updated anyway!<br /><br />Of course it was mostly to stop competition between bakers and brewers and increase tax intake, but the specification of hops <I>might</I> suggest that other items were being used for bittering, and it's quite likely that some of these would not have been the best for you (not necessarily toxic in small doses so to speak). It's equally clear that a vast majority would have been very tasty and interesting, and indeed the likes of Keut using mixtures of herbs survived in other parts of Germany for quite a while, like in many other places. Actually, Martyn's Amber Black & Gold lists some really interesting ones that I know TBN would probably like to try. He has an unhopped beer fetish :D<br /><br />A similar English law was in 1697 by the way, apparently introduced to keep the army and navy big enough to fend off a potential French invasion, as malted barley was taxed. According to Martyn this put an end to a wheat beer tradition in England. Shame. Again, see his book, Amber Gold & Black if you haven't yet (I'm guessing you have).<br /><br />Regarding the history of yeast, <A HREF="http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/a-short-history-of-yeast/" REL="nofollow">Martyn writes about it here</A>.<br /><br />I was thinking about what you said about Pilener Urquell not listing yeast as an ingredient. It's the same reason some of the German brewers don't list the clarifiers and stuff. And indeed, they would be different beers if they weren't clarified and pasteurised. As long as they taste good I don't care though.<br /><br />If only they had coca cola back then it could have been included in the banned materials! :)<br /><br />On an aside, Ron Pattinson's list of extinct German beer styles was a really useful tool for me to expand the minds of some of my colleagues beyond the Gebot in German terms. So much so that we determined to make a cherry beer with cherries from a colleagues garden. That's the kind of Happy German Beer Day there should be.<br /><br />Keep the comments coming!Barry Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07367655129107699025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8943606491780538470.post-73248869342177751132009-04-23T13:44:00.000+02:002009-04-23T13:44:00.000+02:00They knew very well what the yeast did. I think it...They knew very well what the yeast did. I think it was in zythophile that I read about a document that mentions brewers switching from bottom to top fermenting according to the season, and it does predate 1516.<br /><br />They might have not know how, or why (though I suspect some beer alchemist knew that very well already), but they were very familiar with the what the yeasts did and they knew already that using different yeasts affected the quality of the beer.<br /><br />One reason I believe "toxic" beers were not all that common to justify writing a law to prevent people from brewing them is that the original text does not mention it. It only says that beers brewed with ingredients other than the established will be confiscated. The Bavarians already took their beer very seriously back then and if the toxic beers were in any way common, they would have been mentioned and severe punishments would have been set for those brewing them.<br /><br />To me Reinheitsgebot was basically drawn to protect bakers and to make it easier for the government to tax the beer. It was the same in England I can't remember when now.<br /><br />But whatever it is, it never dealt with the quality of the product. Processes are never mentioned and to me they are far more important than ingredients.Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8943606491780538470.post-60638161325301978742009-04-23T12:59:00.000+02:002009-04-23T12:59:00.000+02:00One proof that they needed such laws was is that w...One proof that they needed such laws was is that we are talking about a country where they mix cola and orange juice in ther beers. Ugh!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8943606491780538470.post-15763602169540526402009-04-23T12:15:00.000+02:002009-04-23T12:15:00.000+02:00Doesn't matter if it was common or not, it was see...Doesn't matter if it was common or not, it was seen as reason enough for them to start this whole thing. And there's plenty of stories from other places where brewers were less than customer friendly where it came to ingredients. Even in Ireland! Gasp!<br /><br />Yes, I noted the "exceptions" to the rules later in the post (forgot to add rye though), and while yeast may have been known about as a substance that did something, would it be fair to say that they didn't know exactly <I>what</I> it was?<br /><br />Bear in mind I'm pretty far from being a Reinheitsgebot apologist.Barry Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07367655129107699025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8943606491780538470.post-33838615037526249822009-04-23T11:44:00.000+02:002009-04-23T11:44:00.000+02:00"and partially to stop brewers using crazy stuff l..."and partially to stop brewers using crazy stuff like poisonous and psychoactive mushrooms"<br /><br />That has always sounded like a myth to me. I am not saying that there weren't any brewers selling beers with toxit stuff, but I don't think they were as common as some people would like us to believe.<br /><br />Even before Reinheitsgebot, commercial brewing was pretty regulated, so it seems rather unlikely that someone could have got away with brewing poisonous beer even then. Perhaps they were clandestine brewers, if so, Reinheitsgebot never applied to them.<br /><br />The current German beer law says that only malted barley, water and hops can be used for bottom fermenting beers and for top fermenting malted wheat ad rye and sugars are also allowed. That is why some brewers have to fight long and hard to get their beers to have the word "bier" on the label.<br /><br />That they didn't know the yeasts is another myth. Yeasts have been known to brewers for a very long time. There are many documents older than Reinheitsgebot that prove it. The reason why they were not included is that they were not considered an ingredient. Pilsner Urquell still doesn't consider yeast as an ingredient. They claim that it's because they are revomed after fermentation is done. Which is a funny way to see things, the beer wouldn't be as it is if it was spontaneously fermented or if different yeast strains were used.Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.com